Been a Rough Season !!!

[jklcpa]

1 hour ago, mcb39 said:

I am in this mostly for the sake of the clients.

Well I am too and most of my clients aren't anywhere near in this range. I am serioisly curious though what some others of you would charge for a return package that included nine returns that included splitting the income and deductions manually for those states to be correct, had 2 complicated projections containing 3 scenarios and done at different times during the year, had to create the mortgage amortization schedules and tie in the balances for one that settled midway through the year, another starting during the year, so 3 mortgages altogether and about 2 million in debt. I spent at least half a day on all that not including the phone calls or the meeting with them at the end to deliver and explain it all, the handholding and questions afterward, and finalizing the efiling. 

How much would you charge for more than a 1/2 day of work in total?

 

[jklcpa]

A couple of years ago I agreed to prep a very simple return for an employee of a business client. Prior CPA preparer charged btwn $450-$500 for a return with one W-2, two SSAs, one 1099int, one 1099R, standard deduction...AND IT HAD ERRORS. HRB would have been even higher around here!  Former preparer wouldn't return their calls, and they took it there in person and former preparer refused to acknowledge the error or fix it.

These people are really, really nice too. They were really nervous coming to pick up the returns and the amended ones from me, naturally being worried again about the CPA price.  I was nowhere near that fee! 

[BulldogTom]

16 minutes ago, jklcpa said:

Well I am too and most of my clients aren't anywhere near in this range. I am curious though what some others of you would charge for a return package that included nine returns that included splitting the income and deductions manually for those states to be correct, had 2 complicated projections containi.g 3 scenarios and done at different times during the year, had to create the mortgage amortization schedules and tie in the balances for one that settled midway through the year, another starting during the year, so 3 mortgages altogether and about 2 million in debt. I spent at least half a day on all that not including the phone calls or the meeting with them at the end to deliver and explain it all, the handholding and questions afterward, and finalizing the efiling. 

How much would you charge for more than a 1/2 day of work in total?

 

Since I charge by form, it is hard to compare.   I just did some back of the napkin math and I come up with about $1200-$1400.

For comparison, I have a client with a Sch C (Sep included), spouse is high income, Sch A, Sch B, K-1, 1 kid in college, multiple rentals in another state and the documentation they send me every year is pristine.   This year the invoice was just under $900.  I love this client.

I have another client who left CA, retired early, SS, Investment income and Sch D activity, HSA, over the limit mortgage and 6 CA K-1s.  Fed and CA NR plus all the basis sheets and Passive activity stuff.   $490.  I love this client too.   He calls me every Nov and tells me what his income is and asks if he needs to harvest losses or take profits.   No surprises when I get his docs.

On the low side, Fed & CA with W2, Interest and simple Sch A goes about $150.

Don't know if that helps or hurts.

Tom
Longview, TX

[jklcpa]

14 minutes ago, BulldogTom said:

Since I charge by form, it is hard to compare.   I just did some back of the napkin math and I come up with about $1200-$1400.

For comparison, I have a client with a Sch C (Sep included), spouse is high income, Sch A, Sch B, K-1, 1 kid in college, multiple rentals in another state and the documentation they send me every year is pristine.   This year the invoice was just under $900.  I love this client.

I have another client who left CA, retired early, SS, Investment income and Sch D activity, HSA, over the limit mortgage and 6 CA K-1s.  Fed and CA NR plus all the basis sheets and Passive activity stuff.   $490.  I love this client too.   He calls me every Nov and tells me what his income is and asks if he needs to harvest losses or take profits.   No surprises when I get his docs.

On the low side, Fed & CA with W2, Interest and simple Sch A goes about $150.

Don't know if that helps or hurts.

Tom
Longview, TX

I'm pretty much in line with your pricing. I have those easy ones that are under $200 too. Then there are ones to deliver where the total will be on your higher end. All the bookkeeping for an entire strip shopping center, lots of payments for expenses charged on credit cards, quarterly tenant passthrough billings, quarterly gross receipts tax filings, had a casualty with insur reimb when a tractor trailer ran into the end of the buildings with structural damage. It's an LLC taxed as partnership, and then preparing the individual owner returns with other investment properties too. Very high income. Great clients that were with the firm I worked for in the 80's and came to find me when that owner retired and have been with me since '96. Will be delivering to their home for no charge, gives me a break to get out of the office for a short time too. 

[BulldogTom]

Bookkeeping is a separate charge for me.   I don't mix the two on my billing.   1 bill for the bookkeeping, 1 for the tax return.   And I made a decision a couple years ago that Corps, Scorps and P/S start at $1000 before I open my software.  I don't care how simple they are, they can get hairy in a heartbeat.

I am thinking about doing the same thing with Estates and Trusts.   The amount of handholding that you have to do when someone's mother passes away and the child who has no clue how to be a Trustee starts asking questions.   They have built trust with us, and we try to walk them through the process, but man it takes a lot to get them to understand what they have to do, all the while grieving their loss.   I just wrapped one up that I would rather never see the client again.   And they are good friends of ours.  But man it was rough.

Tom
Longview, TX 

[jklcpa]

11 minutes ago, BulldogTom said:

Bookkeeping is a separate charge for me.   I don't mix the two on my billing.   1 bill for the bookkeeping, 1 for the tax return.   And I made a decision a couple years ago that Corps, Scorps and P/S start at $1000 before I open my software.  I don't care how simple they are, they can get hairy in a heartbeat.

 

I do breakout the charges on my billing, and the partnership gets a separate bill anyway. 

[Randall]

I'm way low.  But I'm old.  So what anymore.  I do keep a time sheet on each client and use a rate times my time.  But the total is much higher than I actually charge.  I'm too embarrassed to tell you what I charge.

[BrewOne]

9 hours ago, BulldogTom said:

I don't care how simple they are, they can get hairy in a heartbeat.

they certainly can.  but I have a partnership that is one rental property and on January 15, I have a clean spreadsheet delivered to me.  So I think there has to be room to charge less.  Same with a trust that has one consolidated 1099 with all the 1099-B stuff in the covered category. 

But I'm afraid they are going to have sticker shock when I retire.

[mcb39]

11 hours ago, jklcpa said:

Well I am too and most of my clients aren't anywhere near in this range. I am serioisly curious though what some others of you would charge for a return package that included nine returns that included splitting the income and deductions manually for those states to be correct, had 2 complicated projections containing 3 scenarios and done at different times during the year, had to create the mortgage amortization schedules and tie in the balances for one that settled midway through the year, another starting during the year, so 3 mortgages altogether and about 2 million in debt. I spent at least half a day on all that not including the phone calls or the meeting with them at the end to deliver and explain it all, the handholding and questions afterward, and finalizing the efiling. 

How much would you charge for more than a 1/2 day of work in total?

 

I charge according to the client, the circumstances and whatever number pops into my head.  I would not be embarassed to quote my prices.  As I said, I do this work "for the clients".  I have a Priest client who has been with me for 26 years; one of the most complicated returns that I do.  He has his fingers in so many endeavors; investments, rentals, land, three churches and is a chaplain at a local hospital.  I spent all day yesterday because his return is a deep dive.  At the end of the afternoon I felt immense relief and satisfaction and will charge him $225.  In return, I will pay his church $150 to put my and my husband's tiny ads on their bulletin.  He will and does pray for me.  He loves me unconditionally and pops in whenever he feels the need to ease his soul.  This is the kind of operation that I run.  Of course, I am not this kind to everyone; and if I deal with a client who I don't feel rapport with, I have no problem sending them down the road.  

I sleep well at night; my clients reward me in many ways.  We have tissues on hand as many times tears are shed in this office.  I offer solace, peace and comfort.  I offer advice, kindness and the wisdom of my nearly 86 years of age. "My cup runneth over with love".  I don't offer this advice for those of you who have to make a living from this job.  However, after 66 years of marriage, if we weren't comfortable with our simple life; we never would be.  I am grateful to and thankful for each and every one of you.

[Catherine]

16 hours ago, BTS said:

what would you charge for this ?

$450 - $500

[Catherine]

11 hours ago, Sara EA said:

Not many of us have the nerve to get rid of our PIA clients

I did that this year with one client. Couple, he thinks I'm great, she doesn't understand numbers at all and is suspicious of everything. Plus she is (only vaguely competent) trustee of five family trusts left by a parent. Royal PITA getting anything out of them except "why aren't you done yet?" queries. Told them last year - after their payment checks cleared - that they needed to find someone else for this year. 

When this thread of "rough season" started up I realized the entire reason this season, while hectic and full of its own upheavals, seems so much better, is because this one family went elsewhere. 

And yes, husband called in January, asking pretty please if I'd take them back. Told him, very politely, no. 

[Catherine]

TLDR version of post above: DUMP the pita clients. Your life will be so much better.

[Catherine]

11 hours ago, jklcpa said:

How much would you charge for more than a 1/2 day of work in total?

Last time I had something that convoluted, the bill was over $1,200 and that was years ago. Today, probably closer to $2,000 - $2,500 for 1040 series. More if 1041s (with or without K-1a) are part of the mix. 

[Catherine]

10 hours ago, BulldogTom said:

I am thinking about doing the same thing with Estates and Trusts.

My starting price on those is roughly $900 at this point. If I have a state estate return to file (not estate income, but estate), those start at $6,000. MA starts from the federal 706 as of 2003 (1998 form) - only available as a pdf at this point in time. Once that is filled out you can move to the 6-page state form. 

[BTS]

12 hours ago, Sara EA said:

Beware though; we had a client who came in every year with her check already made out so a price increase would be hard to impose.  

Well, we quit taking checks after covid.  Had a crap load of bounced checks during covid.  And tracking people down was a nightmare.  Best decision we made.

[BTS]

11 hours ago, BulldogTom said:

On the low side, Fed & CA with W2, Interest and simple Sch A goes about $150.

We would be $165 and that includes city tax.

11 hours ago, jklcpa said:

Great clients that were with the firm I worked for in the 80's and came to find me when that owner retired and have been with me since '96. Will be delivering to their home for no charge, gives me a break to get out of the office for a short time too

We have a few elderly clients we pick up and deliver.  Been with us forever.  90% of our clients have been with us for over 25 to 30 years.  Of course a handful pass and we pick up a handful every year.  We do have some that leave one year to try someone else, but they get sticker shock and come back.

55 minutes ago, mcb39 said:

I sleep well at night; my clients reward me in many ways.  We have tissues on hand as many times tears are shed in this office.  I offer solace, peace and comfort.  I offer advice, kindness and the wisdom of my nearly 86 years of age. "My cup runneth over with love".  I don't offer this advice for those of you who have to make a living from this job.  However, after 66 years of marriage, if we weren't comfortable with our simple life; we never would be.  I am grateful to and thankful for each and every one of you.

I can agree to an extent.  My father started our business back in the late 60's.  Small town and everyone knows each other.  Always there for clients and never charged for phone calls or when people dropped in with questions.  Fast forward  He dies at age 86 and did taxes till he was 84.  Over 60 years in our small town.  At his funeral there were clients who came, but not many.  But we have an extended family so there was a ton there.  My point is, your clients, no matter how good you are to them do not care about you in the long run.  Your just the tax guy  

44 minutes ago, Catherine said:

My starting price on those is roughly $900 at this point. If I have a state estate return to file (not estate income, but estate), those start at $6,000. MA starts from the federal 706 as of 2003 (1998 form) - only available as a pdf at this point in time. Once that is filled out you can move to the 6-page state form. 

Our easy partnerships start at $385 (two partners with two rentals).   We need to raise our rates !!!   But like I mentioned in the original post, we are doing away with 1065's and 1041's.  Let them get sticker shock elsewhere 

[mcbreck]

When you see someone's name pop up on caller ID and your heart drops, fire them. Life's too short to be miserable.

[BTS]

9 minutes ago, mcbreck said:

When you see someone's name pop up on caller ID and your heart drops, fire them. Life's too short to be miserable.

Oh we have a few of them !!!

[GLJEANNE]

I retired from my business accounting last year (though it took well into October to get rid of everyone, lol), so this is my first season without also having payrolls and accounting.  There were a couple weeks that were miserable, and I'm pissed right now at handful of folks dribbling me info piece by piece.    Overall I think it was okay.  Lost a few, gained a few. 

I wouldn't mind getting rid of all my K1 clients, since those tend to be the latest, but they're some of my favorite people, so I keep them.  And this year, K1s all came in March, miraculously.  I'll probably hold onto all but a couple folks that just need to go.

[Margaret CPA in OH]

I was never so happy as when I rehomed all business clients (save a couple of small Sch. C and E) when my other CPA retired.  There was no way I was going to do payroll and accounting.  My tax season is so comfortable now with about 50 clients and evenly spaced. The turnover is really small, usually passing but it seems there is always another new one coming.  It works very well for me for those 10 or so weeks.  I enjoy the handful that come in to check up annually and the couple I go to see.  Most have been with me at least 25 years. 

[Lee B]

That's funny. I am happy doing business accounting and payroll, it's personal tax returns that I really don't like!

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Lee B, but you have to work year round.  I don't   Different strokes....

[BTS]

21 minutes ago, Margaret CPA in OH said:

I was never so happy as when I rehomed all business clients (save a couple of small Sch. C and E) when my other CPA retired.  There was no way I was going to do payroll and accounting.  My tax season is so comfortable now with about 50 clients and evenly spaced. The turnover is really small, usually passing but it seems there is always another new one coming.  It works very well for me for those 10 or so weeks.  I enjoy the handful that come in to check up annually and the couple I go to see.  Most have been with me at least 25 years. 

Being in Ohio also, another issue we constantly have is clients living in a RITA municipal.  They never seem to know if they paid estimated to them or not.  If they did they never keep receipts.  So we always have to call RITA and see if they did.  I hate RITA !!!  And the sad thing is, more towns are going to them.  Would also love to have just 50 well paying clients.    But unfortunately thats what we do in a few days.

[Lion EA]

4 hours ago, Catherine said:

I did that this year with one client. Couple, he thinks I'm great, she doesn't understand numbers at all and is suspicious of everything. Plus she is (only vaguely competent) trustee of five family trusts left by a parent. Royal PITA getting anything out of them except "why aren't you done yet?" queries. Told them last year - after their payment checks cleared - that they needed to find someone else for this year. 

When this thread of "rough season" started up I realized the entire reason this season, while hectic and full of its own upheavals, seems so much better, is because this one family went elsewhere. 

And yes, husband called in January, asking pretty please if I'd take them back. Told him, very politely, no. 

Catherine is my idol and my hero! 

[mcb39]

22 hours ago, BTS said:

Fast forward  He dies at age 86 and did taxes till he was 84.  Over 60 years in our small town.  At his funeral there were clients who came, but not many.  But we have an extended family so there was a ton there.  My point is, your clients, no matter how good you are to them do not care about you in the long run.  Your just the tax guy  

I don't treat my clients kindly for what I can receive in return.  I don't plan on having a funeral.  I can say though that when I was very ill in July, some brought soup; some brought hot dishes. Many sent cards, etc.  So, some do care about me.