Clergy exempt from SE Tax

[TaxmannEA]

I have a minister who elected exemption from SE Tax on Form 4361 in 2015. He now wants to have the church withhold FICA taxes on his payroll for whatever reason. I know that the 4361 is irrevocable once granted. (Yes, I told him that at the time.)  Would this also apply to FICA withheld as an employee?  I tend to believe that he's out of luck, but someone here might know "the way".

[Lion EA]

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f4361.pdf

As you said, once the exemption is approved, you cannot revoke it. The exemption covers payments for ministerial duties. If he paints houses on the side, he should have FICA withheld. If he expects a non-ministerial SE tax obligation, he could increase his FIT withholding to have enough in his "bucket" to cover SE as well as FIT or make SE payments. If he's a minister in a national or large denomination, he can probably get counsel from his superiors or a legal or finance department. Read Pub. 517 for more information.

[TaxmannEA]

Thanks. I was hung up on the SE Tax  reference on the form. When he did this, he was working another job with FICA coverage. Now he's full-time clergy. The problem is explaining it to him as English is his second language. 

[Lion EA]

A lot of IRS Pubs and Forms come in multiple languages. Perhaps you can download the relevant ones in his language. If a Pub, just give him the paragraphs that you need him to understand.

[Max W]

9 minutes ago, Lion EA said:

A lot of IRS Pubs and Forms come in multiple languages. Perhaps you can download the relevant ones in his language. If a Pub, just give him the paragraphs that you need him to understand.

Pub 17 is available in Spanish.  There are some forms W-4, W-7 and a few others also available.  There are no other languages provided. There is also a Glossary  of English to Spanish tax words and phrases -Pub 850.  

As a side note - I have a friend who had a tax prep service and had 60 clergy as clients.  He said they were the biggest tax cheats.  

[Randall]

7 minutes ago, Max W said:

As a side note - I have a friend who had a tax prep service and had 60 clergy as clients.  He said they were the biggest tax cheats.  

 

[Lion EA]

When I chose Language from the IRS.gov menu, I was offered information in five languages besides English: Espanol, two with symbols that might be Japanese and Chinese, Russian (I know the cyrillic alphabet), and Tieng Viet with a lot of pronunciation symbols above and below the letters. I know preparers who use a translation app on their phones, but I haven't tried that for specialized vocabulary such as taxes.

[TaxmannEA]

This guy is from Tibet. Fortunately he reads English reasonably well, but he has trouble when you explain something verbally. He's a great guy, but when we converse it's like we're speaking different dialects. Than God he has a good sense of humor!

[Lion EA]

Print Pub 517 and highlight the relevant paragraphs for him to read.

[Catherine]

5 hours ago, Lion EA said:

might be Japanese and Chinese

I think one is Korean.

[Lion EA]

I think that's correct.

[Max W]

On 9/18/2018 at 10:39 AM, Lion EA said:

A lot of IRS Pubs and Forms come in multiple languages. Perhaps you can download the relevant ones in his language. If a Pub, just give him the paragraphs that you need him to understand.

The IRS does provide info for 5 languages, Spanish Russian, Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese.  If you pull down the language tab on the header line, you can see what they are.

There are also English to the other 5 language glossaries. 

The info available are things like TAS, EITC, Disaster assistance, small biz tax responsibility, Where's my Refund, LITP language service locations, etc .  None of the pubs available are related to tax preparation except Pub 17 in Spanish.  The are no tax  prep forms available except 1040PR in Spanish, but that is only for Puerto Rico.   Forms such as W-7, 2848, and other information forms are available in the other languages.

[Max W]

22 hours ago, TaxmannEA said:

This guy is from Tibet. Fortunately he reads English reasonably well, but he has trouble when you explain something verbally. He's a great guy, but when we converse it's like we're speaking different dialects. Than God he has a good sense of humor!

The only solution is to find someone fluent in both languages, preferably a professional interpreter.   You said you explained it to him before and he said "yes".  You do not know what he understood.  When dealing with non-native speaking people you have to ask them what they understand.  It also applies to many native speakers of English.  You deem  him as reading English "reasonably well" .  Reasonable well is not going to cut when it comes to reading  tax information.  

I speak from experience as a former translator/interpreter.

This might help you out.  It is a list of LITP clinics that provide translation services.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4134.pdf

[JohnH]

This is so true.  Many times people who have limited skills in their non-native language will answer "Yes" when asked if they understand, even though they don't.  They do so for a number of reasons - running the gamut of everything from embarrassment,  not wishing to inconvenience/embarrass the other person, simply not really wanting to understand in hopes that will give them cover if things go wrong, and so on. I've seen it firsthand numerous times, and will generally try to have the other person explain to me what I just said.  Even that approach doesn't always get you where you need to be. 

[Randall]

17 hours ago, JohnH said:

This is so true.  Many times people who have limited skills in their non-native language will answer "Yes" when asked if they understand, even though they don't.  They do so for a number of reasons - running the gamut of everything from embarrassment,  not wishing to inconvenience/embarrass the other person, simply not really wanting to understand in hopes that will give them cover if things go wrong, and so on. I've seen it firsthand numerous times, and will generally try to have the other person explain to me what I just said.  Even that approach doesn't always get you where you need to be. 

And sometimes (or a lot of times), people with limited skills in their native language.

[Catherine]

1 hour ago, Randall said:

And sometimes (or a lot of times), people with limited skills in their native language.

Or people with just-fine skills in their native language, when dealing with a specialized topic they know nothing about.  Especially if they feel like they "should" know something about it.