Practitioner Education

[Christian]

Some time back Kiplingers advised that compulsory education requirements for practitioners were being considered for inclusion in the new tax legislation being considered. I am happy to hear that this died in committee. I get enough education without being forced to sit through some redundant unneeded stuff although I may inadvertently dent the regs a time or two. 

[Lee B]

Really, it was only 15 hours a year. I have to take 30 hours a year to maintain my Oregon LTC License.

[Christian]

I understand your position. I passed the original IRS test in 2012 but the courses I took and the test I took were largely of no value nor for that matter closely related to my practice. The test seemed to me pretty arcane so much so I had doubts I even passed it as it dealt with situations I rarely if ever encountered in daily practice.

[Jack from Ohio]

31 minutes ago, Christian said:

I understand your position. I passed the original IRS test in 2012 but the courses I took and the test I took were largely of no value nor for that matter closely related to my practice. The test seemed to me pretty arcane so much so I had doubts I even passed it as it dealt with situations I rarely if ever encountered in daily practice.

I can say the same thing about the E.A. tests.  Once I figured out to study to pass the test and not to expect any of the study to be used in my practice, passing the tests became a lot easier.

[TAXMAN]

Hey Jack your comment "figured out to study to pass" is interesting. I plan on taking it in 2018. Can you shed some guidelines. A lot of that stuff I will never ever see. Thanks

[Jack from Ohio]

2 hours ago, TAXMAN said:

Hey Jack your comment "figured out to study to pass" is interesting. I plan on taking it in 2018. Can you shed some guidelines. A lot of that stuff I will never ever see. Thanks

I used Gleim.  My recommendations:  Study part #2 first.  Remember, you are studying to pass the test.  It is the most difficult.  Once you pass #2, then move to #3. 

I recommend reading Circular 230 (the latest updated version) to get familiar with it. Be sure to have lots of caffeine around when you read it.   Then take test #3.  

If you have prepared a variety of personal returns, parts 1 & 3 should be reasonably easy to pass.

Once you pass a section, you have 2 years to pass the others.

[BulldogTom]

3 hours ago, TAXMAN said:

Hey Jack your comment "figured out to study to pass" is interesting. I plan on taking it in 2018. Can you shed some guidelines. A lot of that stuff I will never ever see. Thanks

Way, way back in the day when I took the exam (scanner card and #2 Pencil), the IRS would give you copies of the prior year examinations.   I was surprised at how many of the questions did not change from year to year.   If they still give out the prior exams, you should get them, and get used to the way the questions are worded.   I also used Gleim study material.

Tom
Modesto, CA

[Lee B]

On 12/29/2017 at 3:05 PM, BulldogTom said:

 I also used Gleim study material.

 

Yeah, Gleim has been around awhile. I used Gleim 40 years ago to study for and pass the CPA exam.

Edited January 2, 2018 by jklcpa
moved response to outside of quote box

[Catherine]

I used Gleim as well (paper books as well as CD interactive practice tests).  Once I started catching the "error" questions (the ones from actual IRS exams, with multiple correct answers or where correct answers could not be positively determined from the information given), I figured I was gonna do OK.  The big thing I learned was NOT to second-guess myself.  Every question I went back to and agonized over, and changed my answer - was wrong.  Not all the ones I did not re-think were right - but a lot more of them WERE right, and it was far less stressful!  Back when I took it, it was four parts, all at once over two days.  Passed all four first try, and I give all the credit to Gleim for the great preparation.  

[grmy2h]

@TAXMAN   I used Passkey Books and their online subscription. We have an IRS Exam Study Group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/142932752497488/ or search "IRS Exam Study Group" on Facebook if interested.

I took part 2 first, then 1, then 3 but part 2 had questions from part 1 and part 3 had questions from 1 and 2. This was 2016.

This year group members have been reporting lots of questions on basis, farming and estates.

[RitaB]

12 hours ago, grmy2h said:

@TAXMAN   I used Passkey Books and their online subscription. We have an IRS Exam Study Group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/142932752497488/ or search "IRS Exam Study Group" on Facebook if interested.

I took part 2 first, then 1, then 3 but part 2 had questions from part 1 and part 3 had questions from 1 and 2. This was 2016.

This year group members have been reporting lots of questions on basis, farming and estates.

TAXMAN, I went thru the process in 2016 with my buddy Debbie.  I took the tests in order and feel like that's probably best.  I read TheTaxBook to prepare for Part I, and it was perfect.  I used the Passkey books for Parts 2 and 3.  Ordered them on Amazon.  Very reasonable.  Each study guide has sample tests and there is also a book with six "big" sample tests, two for each part.  I also joined the FaceBook group, thanks to Debbie.  

I started by reading all the stuff I could find online.  Here are links to places that really helped me.  Best wishes, you'll be glad you did it!

https://www.irs.gov/tax-professionals/enrolled-agents

https://www.prometric.com/en-us/clients/SEE/Pages/landing.aspx    

http://www.nsacct.org/blogs/nsa-admin/2016/06/14/24-tips-for-passing-the-enrolled-agent-exam-part-1

http://www.nsacct.org/blogs/nsa-admin/2016/06/20/24-tips-for-passing-ea-exam-part-2

 

[SaraEA]

CPAs have complained forever about how much of the material they have to learn for the CPA exam they will never ever use.  I did the same thing when I took the EA exam 10 years ago.  Not different from PhD candidates.  The studying and testing process is a series of hoops you have to jump through to have enough sweat equity in your credential to value it.

That said, don't be so quick to dismiss the esoteric things you have to learn as never usable and a waste of time.  Someday, somewhere a situation will come up where something still stored in a brain cell will emerge and tell you there is some sort of reg or pub that addresses it.  You won't remember the details, just that guidance is out there, so you will go and look it up.  Paying medical expenses for nondependents?  Optional method of calculating SE tax?  How about recapturing depreciation claimed under ACRS?  It may in fact come up.  And just maybe the fact that EAs have the ability to learn all this stuff and pass the horrid exam does give the credential some sheen.

[Jack from Ohio]

Passed the E.A. exams in Dec. 2015.  I have used NONE of the things I had to memorize to pass the test.  There were hundreds of things on the tests I already knew. 

[Joel]

Quote

That said, don't be so quick to dismiss the esoteric things you have to learn as never usable and a waste of time.  Someday, somewhere a situation will come up where something still stored in a brain cell will emerge and tell you there is some sort of reg or pub that addresses it.  You won't remember the details, just that guidance is out there, so you will go and look it up.  Paying medical expenses for nondependents?  Optional method of calculating SE tax?  How about recapturing depreciation claimed under ACRS?  It may in fact come up.  And just maybe the fact that EAs have the ability to learn all this stuff and pass the horrid exam does give the credential some sheen.

•  

I so agree.  I always have felt that education is knowing the right book or website to look up the answer.  We cannot remember everything!

[Evan S. Golar]

Some of you weren't even around when you had to pass the exam the old fashioned way - you had to learn it. There were no things as software programs to assist, or education programs to attend, no online programs - you had to read Pub 17 and (at that time) Pub 34, and Circular 230 and remember them.

You had to know the formula for Gain on Sale of Personal Residence (Form 2119) which was a deferral of gain, Maximum Tax on Earned Income calculation, zero bracket amount, no Education credits - and it was a multiple choice hand written exam - no calculators were available.

[Lion EA]

Doing long division on the paper and pencil they provided -- hadn't done that since third grade.  Two solid days at a site far from home.  Waiting months for results.  Good thing I passed all four parts on the first try, because I'd already decided I'd never do that ever again!

[Pacun]

I passed the paper exam but I didn't file the form or paid the $30 fees. 5 years later, I had to take the computer exam which is much easier. But the time people take exam 3, they don't remember much form exam 1.  On paper, you sat for 2 days taking 4 exams for thee hours each which made you more knowledgeable and you had to remember more stuff for longer periods of time. At that time the IRS used to say that an EA would know more about taxes than a CPA but now that statement might not be correct.

Even though they have made the exam so easy now (you can take 1 exam every 4 months), I have seen tax preparers doing taxes for 5 years or more, not able to pass the exams. That's like being a cook for 5 years and not being able to cook a steak. Some of the arguments about the EA exam above are like a cook stating "I am an Italian cook and why will I learn how to make quesadillas or how to cook hamburgers since they are not in my menu".

I wished the IRS had a masters on taxes and a phd. So the EA would the bachelors degree and harder exams for people wanting to know more.

By the way, in August, I attended the HR block beginners class, unfortunately my instructor didn't know much but their book is EXCELLENT.

 

 

[Jack from Ohio]

8 hours ago, Evan S. Golar said:

Some of you weren't even around when you had to pass the exam the old fashioned way - you had to learn it. There were no things as software programs to assist, or education programs to attend, no online programs - you had to read Pub 17 and (at that time) Pub 34, and Circular 230 and remember them.

You had to know the formula for Gain on Sale of Personal Residence (Form 2119) which was a deferral of gain, Maximum Tax on Earned Income calculation, zero bracket amount, no Education credits - and it was a multiple choice hand written exam - no calculators were available.

You act like the current exams are so radically different.  Unless you have taken the modern version, you are uninformed about how much must be memorized to pass the test.

As for doing all the calculations by hand, I have a calculator and a computer to do the calculations now.  Far more reliable than anyone with a pencil.  I had to memorize formulas, thresholds and the like to pass the test.  It is NOT reality in 2017.

As for regulations, if I have even a small question, I go to my computer accessed information sources and the books I have.  No need to memorize the entire tax code, as taking the test requires.  In  real life, I just need to be sure of where I need to go to find the correct answers and information.  It is 2017, and my computer is a tool that makes me much more productive than relying on my memory or just a pencil & calculator.

[Pacun]

2 minutes ago, Jack from Ohio said:

 

As for regulations, if I have even a small question, I go to my computer accessed information sources and the books I have.  No need to memorize the entire tax code, as taking the test requires.  In  real life, I just need to be sure of where I need to go to find the correct answers and information.  It is 2017, and my computer is a tool that makes me much more productive than relying on my memory or just a pencil & calculator.

I guess your clients are different than mine. My clients expect me to know, not to know where to look.  Most of my clients don't have investments or tax exempt income and I do a lot of EIC, but when a client comes and asks me how to report his stock sales or how to report income earned from his embassy, I have to know. If I tell him, let me check my computer, then he/ she will lose confidence in me and my suggestion will carry less effect.

When I go to my doctor, I expect him to give a prescription and to address my situation, NOT to go to the computer to find out anything he should know.

[Jack from Ohio]

28 minutes ago, Pacun said:

I guess your clients are different than mine. My clients expect me to know, not to know where to look.  Most of my clients don't have investments or tax exempt income and I do a lot of EIC, but when a client comes and asks me how to report his stock sales or how to report income earned from his embassy, I have to know. If I tell him, let me check my computer, then he/ she will lose confidence in me and my suggestion will carry less effect.

When I go to my doctor, I expect him to give a prescription and to address my situation, NOT to go to the computer to find out anything he should know.

No comment.

[jklcpa]

Well, this quickly morphed from compulsory education for practitioners into best ways to study for the EA exam.  On that subject, I have no doubt that the IRS will continue to try to find a way to regulate otherwise unregulated preparers. We've had lots of discussions here in the past and I think most of us agree that these paid preparers should have to show some level of proficiency. After that, I do think that there should be some sort of CE requirement so that these preparers without other credentials are keeping up with ongoing changes, some sort of update classes perhaps.  I don't know if that is up to the IRS and think that this is more of a state regulatory issue much like states regulate any other profession.

As for the review courses and study guides that have been mentioned, those are excellent suggestions. The creators of these courses and books have analyzed recent tests and trends and will emphasize those areas that they think are most important and most likely to be tested. They also keep the person disciplined to study and stick to a timetable so that the candidate has completed the studies at the appropriate time.   The suggestions of finding a study group, a buddy to work with, and using prior tests are also excellent ones. 

As for memorizing things we'll never use again, well that comes with the territory of any testing really.  My thoughts on any of these tests, whether it be the EA, CPA, or now defunct RTPT, I look at these tests not only that show a certain level of knowledge and competency, but as important is that they show a level of capability.  Obviously I haven't taken the EA exam, but those answers to the written essay questions and problems on the CPA were intensely scrutinized in the grading process to make see if the candidate showed the proper approach and thought process in working through the problem.  

Finally, and something that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that I think work experience in the field is invaluable, maybe even more important than any testing or any amount of CPE that is imposed, when it comes to actually doing our jobs.