Client passed, wife has Alzheimer's, son wants her to sign

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Oh, dear, the son of a client who passed away last year has informed me that he will be sending the tax documents for his parents for 2014 this week (he lives in another state). He goes on to say he will be in town for the memorial service in 2 weeks and will pick up the return for his mother to sign.

Mother has been in an Alzheimer's facility for several years and is clearly not competent. I have been telling son that he needs to get the proper court documents to be guardian of person and estate. He really doesn't want to spend the money.

Is it appropriate for me to prepare the return with his statement that he will get his mother to sign? Father had POA for mother but son does not have for mother. Should I call my insurance carrier? I'm not entirely comfortable with this.

Suggestions?

[rfassett]

Knowing what you know, I do not believe that I would prepare the return without him getting a POA. And since that will now take a court hearing, I doubt that he would be able to get the POA in time for the April 15th filing. So I would inform him that the two week meeting is off and that until he does what he is suppose to do, the best you can do is return his documents or extend the return. He would be wise to talk to the administrative folks at the home that houses his mother so that he realizes that you are not just blowing smoke. It could be very well the case that the son just does not want to deal with this. None of us want to see our loved ones in that sort of state. But life sometimes is hard. And we need to deal with it as it presents.

Now, all of that above is just my opinion. Calling your insurance carrier would be a prudent thing to do.

[Catherine]

I understand why YOU are not comfortable with it; I wouldn't be either.  Your insurance folks might be a good place to start.

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Thanks for the reply, Ron. I was going to reply to his email and thought I would throw this out first. He has said in the past that he thought it was too expensive ('I don't want to spend the money') and that he would have to spend too much time in this state to get it done. I was hoping after father's death, he would have made plans to do this on this trip.

I will call insurance - only the second time in 20 years but a prudent choice, I think.

[rfassett]

Thanks for the reply, Ron. I was going to reply to his email and thought I would throw this out first. He has said in the past that he thought it was too expensive ('I don't want to spend the money') and that he would have to spend too much time in this state to get it done. I was hoping after father's death, he would have made plans to do this on this trip.

I will call insurance - only the second time in 20 years but a prudent choice, I think.

Now I don't understand the "not wanting to spend too much time in this state" comment. Ohio is beautiful this time of year. Isn't it? :)

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Well, he lives in Mesa, Arizona now. He grew up here so pretty much knows what it's like this time of year. Probably why he moved :)

[jklcpa]

I would tell him to not send you any documents. If he does, I don't think that ethically you can return the documents to him since they are for another taxpayer that he does not have a POA for at this point. I know that you can't give him mom's tax return without you having either authorization from mom or for him being appointed to handle her affairs.

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Judy, that makes so much sense. I am waiting for a return call from the insurance company but agree that, with his statement, I should just let him know that, unless he has guardianship or court appointed document, I cannot prepare a return for her to sign. He couldn't (or shouldn't) have a POA as she has not been competent to sign one for several years.

I think I will call the facility and ask the generic question. I have met those folks before when assisting the client with obtaining documents for Sch A health care deductions.

Oooo, I hate when things like this happen. Father was long time member of my church and the sweetest guy ever. I really don't want to alienate family but can't do the wrong thing.

Thanks again, Judy, once again to the rescue!

[Kea]

This is an interesting topic to me.  I may run into a somewhat similar situation this year.

 

I have preparing the return for a husband / wife couple for several years.  Husband is legally blind & wife had POA to sign return for both.  I learned that wife passed away in January.  Have not yet heard from husband but was wondering how 2014 return would be signed. It will be hard for him to sign as surviving spouse when he typically doesn't sign his own signature.

 

He isn't completely blind, so maybe he will be able to sign (with difficulty).  Hopefully this is something he is working out.  I have not spoken to him this year.

[Margaret CPA in OH]

I called the care center and found out that this is not uncommon.  They can provide assistance, however, to someone to obtain guardianship but said many family members don't want to deal with it.  The guardian can also be a non-family member appointed by the court.

 

So I emailed the son of client stating that I was not able to prepare the return for his mother to sign but could put together the data for an extension which would allow an additional 6+ months from now to get this arranged.  I even offered to be the guardian as I am local.  No reply yet and no return call from insurance yet.  I'm not too worried about insurance as I haven't actually done anything to warrant a potential claim.

 

Your blind client may still manage.  I also have a blind client who signs his returns.  A companion and I go over all the figures with him so he is knowledgeable about the return and I have second eyes affirming the data. 

[Lee B]

This is an interesting topic to me.  I may run into a somewhat similar situation this year.

 

I have preparing the return for a husband / wife couple for several years.  Husband is legally blind & wife had POA to sign return for both.  I learned that wife passed away in January.  Have not yet heard from husband but was wondering how 2014 return would be signed. It will be hard for him to sign as surviving spouse when he typically doesn't sign his own signature.

 

He isn't completely blind, so maybe he will be able to sign (with difficulty).  Hopefully this is something he is working out.  I have not spoken to him this year.

 

 

Any chance there is a contingent POA named ?

[Kea]

Any chance there is a contingent POA named ?

 

It's possible.  A mutual friend was the one who told me about the wife's passing.  I haven't talked to the surviving husband, so I don't know what he has or hasn't done.

[joanmcq]

I have a blind client that signs. You put her finger in the line, and she knows where to sign. It's pretty cool.

[Kea]

I feel like this gentleman could probably sign if he had too.  It's just that his wife has always been the signer in my office.

[Max W]

The signatures of people who are sick, and especially those with mental deterioration, change over time.

 

Even if the mother signed the return, it is highly possible that it would be rejected for not appearing the same as earlier signatures.

[kcjenkins]

The signatures of people who are sick, and especially those with mental deterioration, change over time.

 

Even if the mother signed the return, it is highly possible that it would be rejected for not appearing the same as earlier signatures.

How many of you actually believe that the IRS actually looks at signatures, much less COMPARES them to prior returns, at the time of filing?  I'd bet serious money that trhey never do that until/unless there is some problem with the return.  

[Margaret CPA in OH]

I seriously doubt that anyone looks at the signature but I also don't think it appropriate to knowingly have an incompetent person sign something they are incapable of understanding.

In the case I presented, the EO insurer finally called back and supported my decision to not prepare the return as son stated he would have his incompetent mother sign it. I offered son other options and have not received a reply. I may never. We will meet on March 28 at father's memorial service so it could get awkward.

[kcjenkins]

I do agree with you Margaret, I was just addressing Max's point.  The problem in your case is not whether her signature would be legible, it's whether she's competent to 'attest' as the signature is intended to reflect.  Hopefully you can get the son to understand that point.  

[Margaret CPA in OH]

Remember this one?  So I emailed the son about my decision and reasoning.  Yesterday he emailed me with a copy of his mother's signed durable POA from 2001 (I think around the time of diagnosis of declining mental health) naming him as contingent with all rights to sign, etc.  "I'm thinking you may not have seen this POA before..."  Right.

 

Still an attorney 'feels' he could still 'help' his mother sign the returns.  I assured him that I have no problem any longer with anything except an attempt to have his mother sign.  He should sign and be done with it. 

 

We'll see what happens next!  Can't believe in all our exchanges that he has never mentioned this.  No, I didn't specifically ask as deceased dad told me that she did not have a POA.  Guess he forgot.