Totem Pole

[Christian]

I guess some of us are low on the totem pole. Usually you get a renewal offer from ATX by now but I have seen no mailing or email. How about y'all ? I checked out a competing software but they do not allow direct form entry which I much prefer.

[JohnH]

Direct form entry is vastly over-rated.

I think it's wasteful of time and resources.

Besides, most of what we call direct form entry is really just a link to a data entry sheet anyhow.

There are very few instances in which the data is ACTUALLY entered directly on the form.

If you'll lose that dependence on form entry, then with the right software you'll gain incredible speed.

Since time is money in our business, speed is extra money in your pocket.

But if money isn't your main business concern, then...

[jklcpa]

Besides, most of what we call direct form entry is really just a link to a data entry sheet anyhow.

There are very few instances in which the data is ACTUALLY entered directly on the form.

JohnH is correct with his statement about forms based entry. If you look at the 1040 form in ATX, other than the demographics at the top of the form, there are almost no fields of direct entry unless you are overriding the program's input and calculations. Almost all of the input is done on other input screens, most having multiple tabs that the preparer has to work in that are nothing like the forms themselves.

If you want to renew with ATX, you should contact them soon if you want the discounted price. If it's like past years, doesn't that only extend through the end of this month?

[taxxcpa]

Drake provides a forms-based method. You click on the relevant 1040 line number and it jumps you to the appropriate input screen.

After you become more familiar with the input screens, you tend to use the forms-based mode only for a few forms or schedules that you do seldom use. I still occasionally use the forms-based mode even after using Drake for about seven years, but for most returns it is no longer necessary.

[Terry D EA]

At one time I too was stuck in the forms driven or based entry and couldn't see any other way to work. Now, and after several years of inputting information on worksheets, I agree with John H. it is much faster and actually easier to navigate your way around.

[kcjenkins]

I have always liked form-based input. That said, it's also true that this is a hang-over from the early days when you had to actually know which forms to use, and where to put things, because all the software did was basically 'the math'. Today, the software is much different, and using the forms is, as mentioned, only a visual trick, when almost ever line on that form 'jumps' you to some 'input form'.

[mcb39]

But, you still have to know if the correct numbers flowed to the correct line(s) of the correct form(s). Go back even further to the pencil and carbon paper days. I firmly believe that you have to know your forms.

[kcjenkins]

Us old-timers certainly feel that way, but lots of the younger ones just trust that the software knows. Many 'newbies' have never actually held a 'real' form in their hand, much less had to fill one out by hand. They never had to read the form to see where it flows.

[Jack from Ohio]

Us old-timers certainly feel that way, but lots of the younger ones just trust that the software knows. Many 'newbies' have never actually held a 'real' form in their hand, much less had to fill one out by hand. They never had to read the form to see where it flows.

I wonder how the IRS reacts if you tell them that? Not for me!! I review the forms to be sure the information is in the right place and makes sense.

[JohnH]

Us old-timers certainly feel that way, but lots of the younger ones just trust that the software knows. Many 'newbies' have never actually held a 'real' form in their hand, much less had to fill one out by hand. They never had to read the form to see where it flows.

That's an interesting observation - never thought about it before. If a tax preparer has never known anything but e-flinging, it is possible for them not to have a comprehensive understanding of how the return actually comes together. I can see how they would be at a serious disadvantage in reviewing a return. More or less like someone trying to understand accounting when they haven't grasped the basics of double-entry.

[jklcpa]

Yes, John, it's true. I saw this first hand when I worked as a supervisor and reviewer at one of the larger firms in town. Once computers came on the scene, the newer staff did not have as good an understanding of the interplay of forms within the return or how to balance a set of books. It was especially obvious if a reviewer sent the product (tax or financial statement) back to the preparer for corrections.

[kcjenkins]

I wonder how the IRS reacts if you tell them that? Not for me!! I review the forms to be sure the information is in the right place and makes sense.

Yes, but you are one of us 'oldies', Jack.

[Joel]

Upon completion of the tax return I discuss every entry on the return with my clients even to the point of showing where the actual numbers originate. For example, with a final K-1 for a partnership, I explain, and show, how the prior unallowed losses on the 8582 flow to the 4797 and the Sch D. Without my prior hand prepared knowledge I don't see how I would be able to completely understand a completed tax return and explain it to my clients. ATX form based program keeps me up to date.

[michaelmars]

That's an interesting observation - never thought about it before. If a tax preparer has never known anything but e-flinging, it is possible for them not to have a comprehensive understanding of how the return actually comes together. I can see how they would be at a serious disadvantage in reviewing a return. More or less like someone trying to understand accounting when they haven't grasped the basics of double-entry.

there is no more double entry, its all quickbooks. I make all my interns do a return by hand just to see how it goes. I use a sample with medical and misc expenses so they see the limitations, have a mortgage on a 2 mil home and the earned tax credit. also some college tuition so they have to calc all the various benefits. - they hate me.

[JohnH]

Good to keep them on their toes.

QuickBooks is totally a double entry system - the offsetting entry is just done in the background. (that's why QB calls them "registers").

But I know why you say that, because if someone can't see the offsetting entry, they may not be aware it's there.

It's still good to draw a "T" account setup every now & ten when teaching someone how to use QB.

If they grasp it, then they're a long way down the road to understanding what's really going on in QB.

[mcb39]

IMO, it is crucial to know why a number goes on which line and where it goes from there. How can you honestly call yourself a tax professional if you trust the program to do all the work. I am ethically in charge of every return I prepare and I watch and check entry as it happens. (Did it go where it was supposed to; and, if not, why not?) As I am training my second year assistant on very simple returns; I want her to know that when she enters a number on a worksheet or form, where it is going to end up and why.

As for double entry bookkeeping, I am still setting some of my clients up with double entry spreadsheets so that they learn and understand how to keep track of their own income and expenses.

We should take this job very seriously and I am sure that most of US do!

[MAMalody]

I must be one of the "oldies" too, because I prefer the form based software. While they do use worksheets (ATX) that transfer a great portion of the info the forms, there is a reason we have multiple updates during the tax season...because the worksheets are not calculating correctly, or transferring data correctly, etc. If you do not know where the data is to end up, you will never catch those mistakes. As an oldie ( and I wear that badge proudly), if you cannot do a return with pencil and paper all the software will realy do is make your mistakes look neat. I get a couple of TT returns every year that I need to correct because the interview/worksheet format was not correctly implemented or handled. I realize that tax professional would probably not make those same mistakes. I also do, at times, lean on ATX to transfer the data correctly (especailly when pushed for time), however, I do review the entire return (all the forms) for correctness and to make sure it passes the smell test.

[RitaB]

I just got a new client who brought in his 2012 self-prepared return. You know, to show me he did it all by himself. He had a penalty on there for excess ROTH contributions. He's never even contributed to a ROTH. Ever. In the history of the world. I asked him how he thought he did on his return. "Not too good now that you mention it," he said. We had a good laugh, and I can't wait to see where that number was supposed to go when he brings in the forms.

[TaxmannEA]

I teach Income Tax and Payroll Accounting at our local junior college. I do not allow the use of software for either course as I believe that the students must be able to understand the flow of data in the systems to properly do the work after they graduate. I'm still getting static from some faculty members about being "old fashioned" in my approach. I reply simply that I'll be d**ned before I let a machine do my thinking for me. I use the software as a tool, not as a final authority.

[Christian]

My Lord ! Well I finally received my quote and have decided to renew with ATX. When I said form entry I meant entry on the W-2 ,1099-Int or whatever. I review the 1040 line by line as I progress. I may opt to change vendors down the road I simply was not familiar with their system and will need time to make myself comfortable with it . Like many of you I started in the pen and ink era with the tax computed manually or from the IRS tables.

[RitaB]

I knew what you meant. Hey, did you renew by credit card, and if so, when do they bill the card? I would renew now if I weren't billed now. I looked over the letter this morning, and I didn't see it addressed. Last time my credit card was billed $173 in Oct 2013 and the remainder in Feb 2014.

[Christian]

I renew by credit card each year. I've never known them not to take the full amount in the month I renew which has always has been May for as long as I can recall.

[jklcpa]

ATX always charged my card in May each year also.

[RitaB]

Well, I waited to renew last year. I guess they extended an olive branch of sorts with special terms on paying.

My kind of olive branch is a huge discount. Just saying.

[Lee B]

ATX offers the deferred payment in the fall, where you pay a processing fee, and balance of the payment is deferred to December

with no discount. The last two years, i've waited to the last minute and paid about a third in January and the balance mid February.