MATH QUESTION

[jainen]

>>Using these conventional ordering rules, the "answer" is 20.<<

Nice post, Don. It is a trick question because the other answers are just as correct in their own terms. To make this more obvious, consider that nobody is questioning whether the number set is in base 10. There are many famous math ambiguities, including some real-world ones. And of course there are lots of word and grammar puzzles along the same lines.

[Jack from Ohio]

Learning the proper way to calculate an equation is part of learning math. Seems that many people slept through Junior High Math, Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry, Triginometry and Calculus.

Jainen, all calculations are by default base 10. Also part of the math classes.

Why do people continue to question the proper solving of the equation, even with the input of a Math teacher?

Just because you do not know the rules does not give you the right to ignore or change the rules.

These things are a sign of why foreign students are kicking our students' ass when it comes to knowing these kind of things.

Calculators & adding machines do not establish mathametical equations solving rules.

[taxxcpa]

I'm willing to agree that the correct answer is 20.

Presenting the problem without parentheses was designed to confuse.

When I create a formula, I do it in excel and could not do it correctly if I assumed that excel knew where to put the parentheses if I left them off.

The University of Texas requires you to take calculus for a business degree.

I once expressed the thought that this was something very few if any business majors needed.

The guy I made this comment to had majored in engineering and said that he had to

take calculus, but even as an engineer he never used it. Of course, I'm sure a lot

more engineers would need it than people in most business-related occupations.

The main thing I've found useful beyond simple arithmetic is understanding how to work a computer and a calculator.

When I took the CPA test, I had to do all of the calculations by hand which seemed

to place too much focus on something other than accounting knowledge.

Once I heard a math teacher who thought carpenters needed to know geometry,

although they have done their work effectively without learning the geometric

rules underlying what they manage to do.

[Jack from Ohio]

If I were a non-apathetic citizen, would I want an accountant doing my taxes that does not understand the basics of advanced math?

Questions that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... We all know that the tax laws are getting simpler every year..... :unsure:

[taxxcpa]

Do you think you need to know calculus, trigonometry and geometry to do taxes.

I can do any necessary calculation using excel by just knowing how to use parentheses and a

few things about excel.

Even the complicated calculations shown in publication 1212 for OID can be done without

knowledge of advanced math if you can work with excel

[Jack from Ohio]

Do you think you need to know calculus, trigonometry and geometry to do taxes...

I can do any necessary calculation using excel by just knowing how to use parentheses and a

few things about excel.

Even the complicated calculations shown in publication 1212 for OID can be done without

knowledge of advanced math if you can work with excel

Simple direct answer as a tax professional - - YES

If you cannot do the calculations on your own, how do you have any idea if the answers from the computer or excel are correct or even close to correct.

I went through school when slide rules were the calculators. My senior year (1973-1974) you could buy a desktop calculator that plugged in the wall, generated heat, did add, subtract, multiply, divide and had a %key for the low price of $100.

If you are not familiar with how complex formulas needed in some situations are processed, how can you know if your software is being accurate. Excel is only as accurate as the information and formulas input.

Again, it is no wonder that children from other countries, living both here and abroad, are far more skilled in Math and are taking the high tech and engineering jobs by storm.

I was at a local restaurant 2 weeks ago with a 20% discount coupon. At the register, with calculator in hand, a High School Senior, the hostess, nor the manager could calculate the bill. I told them the amount of the discount and the final bill. They took my word for it because, even with a calculator, they had no information to object. THIS is the current state of math education in our schools.

BTW, I leaned to do percentage calculations in the 8th grade and knowing how and passing tests on it was mandatory. What has happened to the idea of being professionally equipped to do a professional job?

RANT OVER!!

[Kea]

Speaking of people today not understanding basic mathmatical symbols:

On a trip to a convenience store, I noticed a jar of gum with a sign that said ".5¢". I causually mentioned that that said the gum was one-half a penny. The next time I went there, they had edited the sign. It then said ".05¢". So, if I buy one, how do I get change for my penny? I guess it's just better to buy 20 for a whole penny.

Sorry, but that is just my biggest pet peeve. I really wish people knew how to use a decimal point and / or that a ¢ is different from a $.

Rant over.

[kcjenkins]

Do you think you need to know calculus, trigonometry and geometry to do taxes.

I can do any necessary calculation using excel by just knowing how to use parentheses and a

few things about excel.

Even the complicated calculations shown in publication 1212 for OID can be done without

knowledge of advanced math if you can work with excel

Perhaps you don't need calculus, trigonometry and geometry, specifically, but you sure do need to know the rules of ordering, and of basic math and algebra!!!!

While we all rely on our computers to do most of our calculations, we have to know enough to recognize when there is an error in our spreadsheet formulas. Just think of how often we look at a number on a tax return, recognize from our base of tax knowledge that this number is wrong, go back and check and find that we did not check a box that should have been checked, or we had checked one that should not have been checked or left out some critical info? Those who use Turbo Tax and screw up are a perfect example of the truth that no tax program [and no spreadsheet] can give you the right result if the person using it does not have a good understanding of the rules that govern the forms.

We all tend to rely on our tools to "do it for us", but unless you have the knowledge to recognize an error, based on your knowledge of the subject behind the form, you are not a professional. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but while I think it is highly appropriate to let advanced students use calculators, for example they should not be allowed until after the student has a solid grounding in mathematics. Just as before you touch a tax program, you should study tax law, or else you do not even understand some of the questions you must answer on that tax program.

[RitaB]

A little off track, but since we are talking about math, and Jack is from Ohio, I want to insert here that I am really tired of hearing that Ohio is absolutely going to determine this election. The media really takes us all for fools, like we can't figure out that there are ways to get 270 votes without having those 18.

And, I am not playing the Golden Buckeye Card. Ok, I feel better about it now.

And, Kea, I have the same pet peeve on the dollar sign being used with the cents symbol. I love the way the store "corrected" the problem. lol :scratch_head:

[taxxcpa]

You need to know basic math to write an excel program, which includes knowing how to insert parentheses when appropriate.

But if you want to raise something to the 9th power, you just enter 5^9 or if you want to know the 9th root of a number,

you just enter 95^-9. I could do the first example manually, but I have no idea how to calculate the 9th root of a number without a computer. I might be able to do it with logarithms but I would have to re-familiarize myself with logarithms to do it.

Generally, doing taxes and most other accounting work involves mostly simple grade-school level arithmetic. Knowing the tax laws is also important, but knowing how to look up the tax rules is even more important than memorizing them all. Online CPE courses that dwell on memorizing the amount of exemptions, standard deductions, form numbers, code section numbers do almost nothing to enhance your ability to do tax returns. Neither would getting a phd in math. I used to have a client that had a phd in math. His understanding of taxes was very small.

[Jack from Ohio]

A little off track, but since we are talking about math, and Jack is from Ohio, I want to insert here that I am really tired of hearing that Ohio is absolutely going to determine this election. The media really takes us all for fools, like we can't figure out that there are ways to get 270 votes without having those 16.

And, I am not playing the Golden Buckeye Card. Ok, I feel better about it now.

And, Kea, I have the same pet peeve on the dollar sign being used with the cents symbol. I love the way the store "corrected" the problem. lol

"As goes Ohio, so goes the Presidency." The last 10 Presidential elections have supported this. It actually goes much further back, maybe to FDR.

Since 1944, Ohioans have sided with the losing candidate only once – opting for Nixon over Kennedy in 1960.

http://www.270towin.com/states/Ohio

The "experts" have decided that there are only about 5 states that are "undecided" at this point. Ohio is one of them.

[taxxcpa]

They used to say, "As Maine goes, so goes the nation". Later it became so unpredictive, that they changed it fo "As Maine goes, so goes Vermont."

Ohio has been on the winning side a lot, but that too will probably change in this election or in some future election.

[mcb39]

Generally, doing taxes and most other accounting work involves mostly simple grade-school level arithmetic. Knowing the tax laws is also important, but knowing how to look up the tax rules is even more important than memorizing them all. Online CPE courses that dwell on memorizing the amount of exemptions, standard deductions, form numbers, code section numbers do almost nothing to enhance your ability to do tax returns. Neither would getting a phd in math. I used to have a client that had a phd in math. His understanding of taxes was very small.

That's it in a nutshell. I have no clue how to do formulas in excel or any other spreadsheet. But I did the math question in my head and then checked it on a calculator. I do, however, know how to do a spreadsheet by hand. How dated is that?

[Jack from Ohio]

You need to know basic math to write an excel program, which includes knowing how to insert parentheses when appropriate.

But if you want to raise something to the 9th power, you just enter 5^9 or if you want to know the 9th root of a number,

you just enter 95^-9. I could do the first example manually, but I have no idea how to calculate the 9th root of a number without a computer. I might be able to do it with logarithms but I would have to re-familiarize myself with logarithms to do it.

Generally, doing taxes and most other accounting work involves mostly simple grade-school level arithmetic. Knowing the tax laws is also important, but knowing how to look up the tax rules is even more important than memorizing them all. Online CPE courses that dwell on memorizing the amount of exemptions, standard deductions, form numbers, code section numbers do almost nothing to enhance your ability to do tax returns. Neither would getting a phd in math. I used to have a client that had a phd in math. His understanding of taxes was very small.

That's it in a nutshell. I have no clue how to do formulas in excel or any other spreadsheet. But I did the math question in my head and then checked it on a calculator. I do, however, know how to do a spreadsheet by hand. How dated is that?

I will continue to be proud of having professional skills in the areas needed to be a professional tax accountant and bookkeeper. I will not claim that I am a professional that only needs basic skills to do my job. I hope all my Math teachers can see this.

[Randall]

I did very well in math. But I've forgotten much of the trig, calculus, etc. I even forgot about the ordering rules. I looked for the parenthesis. I still like the parenthesis. They make the ordering rules obvious (or at least remind me of the ordering rules). I think most people would have gotten the correct answer if the parenthesis were put in.

[JohnH]

I think that was the point of the exercise.

[RitaB]

I think that was the point of the exercise.

See, this is why John got a A. Grouping symbols are inserted to CHANGE the order of operations. Rules are in place to tell you what the crap to do in the absence of grouping symbols. Sorry to speak in an manner unbecoming of a true school marm, but c'mon, people. If you need to brush up, and still don't believe the links that have been posted, here are some activities from "Math is fun". Now get in there and experience the %^&* joy.

http://www.mathsisfu...der-pemdas.html

[Jack from Ohio]

See, this is why John got a A. Grouping symbols are inserted to CHANGE the order of operations. Rules are in place to tell you what the crap to do in the absence of grouping symbols. Sorry to speak in an manner unbecoming of a true school marm, but c'mon, people. If you need to brush up, and still don't believe the links that have been posted, here are some activities from "Math is fun". Now get in there and experience the %^&* joy.

http://www.mathsisfu...der-pemdas.html

Are you sure you were not my math teacher too? You sure do sound like her!!

[RitaB]

Are you sure you were not my math teacher too? You sure do sound like her!!

Yeah, I think we all sound like that after a while, Jack. Then, we become accountants so nobody will argue with us anymore about math.

You get an A, too, BTW.

[Gail in Virginia]

I think that is one reason that I liked math class. Normally, there was only one right answer (rather than something subjective) and even if I made a mistake as long as I showed my work I could usually get at least partial credit. Ignoring ordering rules in math is like ignoring the qualifying child/qualifying relative rules on tax returns. And we would never do that!

[JohnH]

Shouldn't that be (qualifying child) / (qualifying relative), or are the parentheses just assumed?